Lecture Starts...

Note from Worr: Many, many thanx to Ram1 who made this a smooth lecture. His name doesn't appear in the script in the editing because he was taping it, but he deserves the recognition for his fine work. :)

From Worr: <takes sip of water> Let me just lay some ground rules here and begin.

Rudder input not only deflects the nose (yaw) of your aircraft so any degrees, but often unaware to many, also "slides" your aircraft in the opposite direction of your rudder input and toward your previous flight path before rudder input was initiated.

From Itm: ??
From Swit: ??
From Itm: just to make sure... slip is like AOA but sideways?
From Hachet: ??
From Worr: slip is the movement....regardless of your AOA
From Itm: right... done
From Worr: movement to the side mostly due to inertia. Swit?
From Swit: May come up later, but is there a 'tech' tip section for enhancing rudder authority? or changes in rudder between versions??
From Worr: sorta :)
From Swit: cc
From Swit: dun
From Worr: I'll get there soon though ... hold that Swit
From Hachet: already answered, it's inertia
From Eagl: !!
From Worr: cc Hachet
From Payback: ??
From Worr: gravity too though
From Eagl: Remember that even with lack of other cues, whenever the slip indicator is not centered you are slipping.
From Eagl: done
From Worr: right too, Eagl
From Hoof: !!
From Payback: you mean "yaw" as in rudder only and "slip" as in rudder and opposite aileron
From Worr: Let me expand that some Payback... good question. I think this isn't a simple concept to grasp right away. But yaw and slip are different. Pyro suggested that one thinks of yaw as the axis of the ac itself, and slip as the movement to the side. Obviously where you point your nose is where your ac is going to want to go since the engine is pulling in that direction, but inertia and even gravity can pull you in a direction off that same axis. This will become an important issue later in both gunnery and guns defense.
From Payback: cc
From Hoof: Is yaw like AoA and slip like lift? Except sideways?
From Worr: yaw is like AoA but vertical; and slip is not like lift in my understanding
From Hachet: !!
From Hoof: cc
From Worr: slip is just inertia and gravity effects....even a car can slip
From Disco Fever: ??
From DocDoom: !!
From Worr: Itm?
From Itm: So slip is the speed vector of the plane... where it IS going... and yaw (pitch in AOA) is where it WANTS to go..
From Worr: BRAVO!
From Worr: well said
From Eagl: clap clap clap
From Worr: (writes Itm's name on note pad)
From BB Gun: shoot, another try - remember when u played with your hotwheels cars as a kid and you gave it *just* enuff slip so that - er flip, so that it went straight but was facing sideways? Straight is slip, sideways is yaw
From BB Gun: done
From Worr: slip is movement; yaw is axis of attack
From Hachet: was going to make a car analogy, but Worr and BB Gun beat me to it
From Hoof: ??
From Disco Fever: Tim hit on my ?..no need done - er Itm
From Worr: remember what we have is a slip indicator not a yaw indicator over the target pipper
From DocDoom: Itm nailed it, but I thought it worth adding
From Bugh: ??
From DocDoom: that a slip is what in a car we call a SLIDE. No more questions after Bugh
From Disco Fever: !!
From Worr: yes...slip = slide
From BB Gun: Like you have to explain in a court of law, Doc? :)
From DocDoom: like, when you opposite lock it, your nose is the yaw, (where car points)
From Worr: yes
From Snak: !
From Worr: (takes sip of water)
From DocDoom: whereas slip is the direction you go (into telephone pole)
From Snak: um, it is your lift vector when rolled out of vertical that causes the higher wing to have...
From Ridge Runner: I think we got it (G)
From Prophet: hehehe
From Bugh: As slip is caused by inertia does this mean that the movement is limited ?
From Snak: More lift and more drag - creating "adverse yaw" and that is why you need to add rudder to compensate.... and keep the aircraft in coordinated flight ....
From Worr: cc coming there soon Snak.... but you say it well
From Snak: but it's easier to think of it like you guys have described
From Worr: hehe
From Hoof: So the analogy with AoA would be the flight path of the plane? As in
From Worr: go ahead hoof and then lets move on....
From Hoof: the direction of travel of the plane vs the nose position, except vertical?
From Worr: well your AoA isn't necessarily the flight path - projected flight path...maybe
From Worr: ah ok Ram1
From Hoof: cc in same sense as yaw isn't slip either
From Worr: yes
From Hoof: cc
From Worr: picture it this way
From Bugh: As slip is caused by inertia does this mean that it is limited in time ?
From Worr: Where your slip indicator is, is the actual flight path and where the target pipper is that is where you engine wants to take you
From Worr: yes Bugh
From Bugh: done
From Worr: OK....

b. Rudder Authority Curves

The nose of your aircraft can be deflected greatly (yaw) at slower speeds with full rudder, however sustained full rudder will not increase that nose deflection exponentially. You hit a brick wall so to speak. You can use the compass to track this - about 30 degrees is a max. The potential sideways movement (slip) of an aircraft is greater at higher speed but at excessive speeds, such as speeds over maximum airspeed in level flight, that potential slip begins to diminish as the aircraft control surfaces lock up. It is nearly impossible to measure this from your own point of view.

From Itm: !!
From Disco Fever: it would seem at high speeds it would be
From Dhog: ??
From Disco Fever: just the opposite w/ regards to slip yaw since slip is the vector - would inertia want to keep you going straight?
From Worr: I'm speaking of three different speeds here slow, moderate and excessive. You are right with regard to moderate.... namely full power level flight speeds say of 280ias but at 450ias... control surfaces lock up and inertia takes over
From Prophet: !!
From NumberSix: ??
From Hardcase: !!
From Hoof: !!
From Worr: yes df
From Disco Fever: yes done
From Duck: ?
From Dhog: DHOG?
From Duck: What is the source of the balancing force that limits yaw
From Hardcase: !!
From Worr: the wind underneath your wings and over your wings (g) - your control surfaces begin to lock up
From Duck: i.e. why doesn't the plane spin like a top.
From Itm: lack of thrust vectoring=)
From Worr: there is a cork screw effect to torque that also causes your rudder trim to change
From Ichi: !!
From Hardcase: !!
From Worr: and yes the vertical stabilizer limits yaw as well :) - I'll get to you guys - hold on - and the very modeling of the ac surfaces in the vertical. Lots designed right into an ac to keep it flying straight ;)
From Worr: go ahead Ram1
From Duck: Vstab is what turns the rudder into a airfoil when deflected.
From Itm: done
From Dhog: Does the rudder greatly impact your current airspeed?
From Worr: yes more so when you are slower - its not a huge effect though Dhog
From Dhog: cc
From Worr: but it creates drag
From Prophet: done
From NumberSix: So the ideal rudder-kick firing pass is done at or about max level speed to minimize yaw in the solution?
From Worr: yes....though sometimes you don't have choices
From BB Gun: !!
From Hoof: One distinction between using yaw/slip at slow speeds for guns defense vs high speed is, as Worr said, at high speeds U slip more, however
From Ridge Runner: I though Yaw was more effective at low speeds
From Worr: your ACM is more limited for rudder moves
From Hoof: at slow speeds it is still useful since the other guy might use aircraft
From Not-RAMP: ??
From Hoof: orientation to calculate correct lead
From Worr: yes good point, but if you are too slow no need to compute much lead. Not-RAMP has last question when we get to him
From Hoof: cc, if the shooter realizes that :)
From Ichi: Vertical Stab is like a weather vane, keeping the plane balanced :***
From Worr: cc
From Bear: been answered Ram go head
From Not-RAMP: Was the headon rudder kick gun pass historically used in WWII?
From Worr: very good question
From Worr: I do not know
From Not-RAMP: cc, done
From Worr: common sense would suggest so....ok letter c

c. Ground Modelling

Ground modeling takes into account not only rudder input to change the direction of your aircraft, but also the turning of the nose/tail wheel of the aircraft. Hence lessons learned on the ground do not necessarily apply to the air with regards to rudder input.
There is one trick well documented by many of the pilot in WarBirds and that is what you can do with the P-38 on the runway. When you land next time wait until you get to 100ias and stomp on the rudder. You can do a 90 degree turn and slide down the runway for a very quick stop. Take notice of the slip indicator... it's really pegged over there. You cannot repeat this in the air. You'll never get that much perpendicular slide effect in flight.

  [ Top of Page ]

From 0-0-: and your gear'll never take it in RL ;-)
From Worr: I'm going to go over to d as well here....but I'll come back to Point c as well
From Worr: cc O-O

d. Coordinated flight

From Bugh: ??
From Itm: !!

Give me a sec guys.... let me press on some more.

From Disco Fever: ??
From Bugh: Is it only 38 that can do the 90 degree turn trick on landing ?
From 0--ac0: Comment
From Worr: I believe so
From Bugh: Why ?
From Ichi: ??
From Worr: has twin engine, no torque effect, and tricycle gear
From Itm: the ground rudder trick IS historical=)
From Lotu-u: ??
From Bugh: cc done
From Itm: they used it to stop planes when they lost power in takeoff run
From Worr: but in short it's a loophole in the ground modeling effect
From NumberSix: anyone tried it in a 39?
From Worr: but you can get a good feel for slip effects
From Itm: but no slip there... only merry-go-round=)
From Itm: done
From 0--ac0: !!
From Disco Fever: I cant believe I don't know this and I guess I always viewed it as a yaw indicator
From Worr: hehe...don't feel bad
From Disco Fever: the slip indicator shows the true direction my plane is moving?
From Worr: I wasn't until I called up Pyro and talked for an hour that I finally got it right too - was humbling
From Hachet: I guess
From Worr: that would be putting it too strongly I believe DF
From Disco Fever: cc
From Worr: the slip indicator isn't graduated - it's relative to your nose aspect too
From Ichi: ??
From 0--ac0: for those of us without rudder pedals....
From Worr: that's true even on a real ac
From Worr: yes.....
From 0--ac0: has it ever been brought up that we could use mouse for rudder input?
From Worr: no I do not believe so - u wouldn't like it though...not self centering
From 0--ac0: Better than keyboard maybe,
From Woebird: !!
From Worr: IMO....no
From Ichi: What makes the nose of the plane drift up in a...
From Worr: keyboard will work fine....and you can do most what I'm talking about here...but not in section II
From Worr: for the ACM you'll need rudders
From Ichi: flat turn where you say needs down rudder for coordinated flight?
From Worr: up drift if from lift, - in a left turn your slip indicator will move right Ichi. This is gravity effect, and also torque effect as you get slower and slower
From Itm: !!
From Worr: in a left turn torque effect may even beg for top rudder
From Ichi: cool done ;)
From Worr: cc
From Lotu-u: why is 110 rudder so ineffective at low speed?
From Worr: explain ineffective?
From Lotu-u: if you are coming in to land and off a little, u cant line up as easily as other planes
From Worr: Its my opinion the top rudder authority ac are the 39, 109 and FW, and the 51 is on the bottom
From Worr: no idea Lotu-u....sorry
From Lotu-u: tx
From Worr: cc
From Don Fisher: !!
From Woebird: What do you mean by down rudder?
From Worr: down is your wing down in a turn...so in a right turn its right wing down - so down rudder is right...top is left
From Itm: part of the need for rudder comes from the fact that
From Woebird: Face reddens
From Itm: the outer wing is going faster and hence creates more drag... imo=)
From Itm: done
From Worr: cc Snak mentioned that above very well put thanx.
From Don Fisher: Just wanted to say that the FW rudder is what makes those hammerheads so easy in it.. despite torque
From Bear: ??
From Worr: cc

Ok.... Ram1, how about this. I see the hour is approaching.... And let me pare back some things. I want to close this up with two very rudder dependant ACM - the hammerhead stall turn and the wing over/slice back. And if there are questions on the other points of the outline I can stick around.

Let me illustrate with the P-38 and the Fw, since these two ac stand at extremes for this very move. To do this move, you need to do a couple of things perfectly. One is - you need to get into a true vertical climb - I mean ballistic - you can verify this with a glance off your wing tip. Do not fly straight up to the + on your green ladder - you'll go nuts trying to stay with that + sign. Pull up under it and stay there. The other thing you need to do is let your speed drop. The rest is easy, but most guys make their errors at these two points - in a 38 you need to drop below 50ias

From Disco Fever: ??
From Ozymandias: ??
From 0--ac0: ??
From Griffin: whispered to Dekker RSAF
From Hoof: !!
From BB Gun: You partially answered my question, but with the engines pulling,
From Lotu-u: ??
From BB Gun: you aren't really balanced on your rudder "eraser" are you? Or is the gravity so strong its just as if you had a "shorter pencil"?
From Worr: No, but gravity is. That ac is heavy up there.
From Disco Fever: !!
From BB Gun: cc done
From Worr: Actually, if you let her begin a tail slide, you won't even need rudders.
From BB Gun: ah -
From BB Gun: done again Don F??
From Don Fisher: Just my dumb thoughts again...sometimes, along with cutting the engine... I find a tiny bit of right aileron helps
From Don Fisher: to prevent me wallowing
From Dekker: !
From DocDoom: I just wanted to add
From Worr: The trick is to control your flight before it gets out of hand don
From Lotu-u: prolly dumb q but every time I have tried that maneuver I get shot b4 I can wingover... what I doing wrong?
From DocDoom: is it fair that in the vertical climb to a hammer head
From Worr: center that slip indicator before it even begins to drift....anticipate it some
From DocDoom: you need a touch (just a tad, varies with speed) of forward stick?
From Worr: I don't hit mine with forward stick
From Eagl: !!
From DocDoom: or did we move off the hammerhead while I was dumped ?
From Worr: FW will do that though if you don't cut power
From DocDoom: done
From Disco Fever: not figuring torque into the equation...
From Worr: it will flop 135 degrees
From Disco Fever: wouldn't it be better to idle the engine...
From Worr: and you have to squeeze out the 45 degrees to get a shot off
From Worr: and that's work in a FW
From Disco Fever: near the top so the E is bled much fast and you don't
From Worr: best to go for the 180 with engine cut
From Disco Fever: hang quite as long b4 u flip?
From Worr: perhaps...but remember you have a target on your six
From Worr: and if its a Ki-84 don't even do this (g)
From Disco Fever: last min I mean
From Disco Fever: just w/ u starting to get really slow
From Worr: cc
From Ozymandias: what kind of stick inputs when ruddering over? or only rudder, stick neutral?
From Worr: neutral
From Worr: if you did it right that is
From Griffin: !!
From Worr: let the engine and gravity set this up for you.......
From 0--ac0: When I go vert like that I use gravity to flip me over at the top, now you say that kicking the rudder is better? Whenever.....
From 0--ac0: I do that I end up in a flipping stall
From 0--ac0: is there a trick?
From Worr: you aren't slow enough then before you hit this....you really have to wait a long time
From Worr: and you have to be vertical
From Hoof: In testing the P-38 is the only plane I've found that can go full power during
From Woebird: ??
From Ozymandias: what speed to kick over at?
From Worr: come Thursday night to training and I'd love to show u
From 0--ac0: rgr
From Hoof: a pure vertical zoom and 180 flip (hammerhead), most other planes
From Worr: cc for 180 degrees
From Hoof: start to spin like a top due to torque, this is very
From Worr: but 135 isn't bad either
From Hoof: important to remember when zooming since the 38 can keep it's nose on you
From Worr: if you don't mind loosing that extra second of gun solution
From Hoof: for longer than all but a few other planes
From Worr: cc
From Ozymandias: ??
From Worr: speed...ah I said under 50ias
From Lotu-u: how do you know when ya can use this maneuver I die b4 I wingover
From Worr: I'm coming to wingovers in sec
From Ichi: ??
From Lotu-u: tx
From Dekker: done Ram1. Next.
From Eagl: a bit of forward stick may be required when vert in hammerhead due to the plane probably being trimmed for 1 G flight when level, so when vert (essentially zero G) the nose may want to float up
From Griffin: when I flip over at the top I always end up on my back, I guess due to the outer wing moving fast
From Worr: cc
From Griffin: can that be countered with aileron or am I doing something wrong? ***
From Worr: Griffin stick to the two simple rules....vert and slow, and you'll do it....(g)
From Griffin: cc, thx
From Worr: all your errors are in those two points
From Woebird: To use your pencil analogy, are you literally pivoting on your rudder when you do it right?
From Worr: yes
From Disco Fever: !!
From Worr: you fall off your tail
From Ozymandias: is there a trick to stay vert 50-100 speed? hard to control at that speed to me..
From Woebird: cc, thx
From Ozymandias: shake and jitter too much
From Worr: its hard only if you aren't due vertical Ozy
From Ozymandias: cc thx
From Worr: you MUST be vertical
From Ichi: Is there a benefit to doing a hammerhead in a 38 as opposed to the elevator flip at the top?
From Worr: yes, you get a true 180, though you have to wait a bit longer. Then again...you set your shot better too with the longer extension in the vert
From Ichi: cc, proves to be more difficult (will try) done.
From Worr: thanx
From Worr: last move then to close this will be the slice back/wing over

b. Sliceback/Wingover

This too is a vertical move, but not a pure one. There is lateral movement like as in a yo yo. In a wing over, you want to stall the lower wing and have it drop below you as your nose will fall over that wing, and do a 150 degree turn. This isn't as aggressive as a hammerhead... but sometimes you just don't have the energy advantage to do a hammerhead.

From DocDoom: !!
From DocDoom: I just wanted to add one caveat to this move
From Worr: sure
From DocDoom: While Worr speaks of the "more vertical" style, there is a time, are times I mean where I use top rudder in the climb, and bang it around the lower wing with bottom rudder, almost a broadside slide or spin
From Eagl: !!
From Worr: cc
From DocDoom: in this instance, you don't climb so steeply, but you do need to be fast
From Eagl: That is remarkably similar to the "Mili move" in the P-38 except
From Worr: cc more speed for this move...which btw escapes good nomenclature
From Eagl: that the P-38 doesn't need to be "led" with the top rudder
From Worr: well the necessity of top rudder is questionable for the move itself
From DocDoom: just call it a spin turn and be done with it Worr :)
From Worr: but top rudder does do this: it sets up the bloke below you for a sucker move - it puts his ailerons out of sync with yours - he'll nose high by using pitch and not rudder and you've got em - hehe Doc - it may be the true Immelmann, Doc
From DocDoom: exactly Worr, and I'm done

Well, let me do some dove tailing of this lecture into the past one that was recorded. How about this, if it's agreeable to all (small band that we be) that I finish up Part 2 of the last lecture on ACM and go right into gunnery issues.

From Kidi: ??
From Itm: !!
From Kidi: what about throttle usage in the hammerhead?
From Worr: that depends on your ac..... You'll need to chop power to keep your torque manageable at the very top but don't cut power too soon... or just make sure you have good separation to keep from letting him catch you in the zoom.
From Kidi: cc
From Itm: yep... and had to point out that it isn't enough to have a better E aircraft.
From Worr: yes... that only part of it.
From Itm: Gotta have some E on him too to pull a hammerhead.
From Worr: do not zoom co-e with a Ki-84 in other words though.
From Itm: hehe
From Worr: many times range will not tell all since you are pulling away from your opponent just when he disappears from your view

The other two moves I would like to cover are the barrel roll and snap roll. Like the wingover/sliceback this too is for when you are without energy and position, but it works even better when your energy status is dreadful by comparison. In other words, your enema has lots more energy and not just some more.

From Drex: ??
From Itm: check speed there... otherwise the onset will be too slow and they will shoot u to pieces
From Worr: yes you hit a snap roll fast
From Drex: what range do you like to induce the snap roll
From Worr: not slow. You'll need to pull Gs for it... black out d12 which is really d10/d9 in my rear view. Always remember objects in mirror are closer than they appear. Pay attention to closure rate as well.... faster the closure rate the sooner you hit it. Its amazing that you lose very little energy with this move - less than the barrel
From Drex: ??
From Worr: it's used less because it's unstable (g)
From Itm: Worr cc
From Drex: would you recommend another move that leads into the snap roll
From Worr: not really Drex....since its so violent and deceptive no one can anticipate it. Its not a sucker move in that sense. Your enema's first thought is "Dweeb stalled!"
From Itm: !!
From Worr: If we started to see more in the arena you might have to try other things...but I see nill
From Drex: rarely see it... If I do they stay in the snap to long
From Itm: the best thing is that a spinning plane does a small unstable circle in the air... tuff to hit
From Worr: yes you have to release everything as soon as departure onsets. It comes on fast and violent but it leaves just as fast.

3. Gunnery Issues

I'm considering here a time when you have superior alt and speed on your target and you have what appears to be a sneak attack but because you aren't sure you have full tactical surprise. You do not want to dump your energy to saddle up... so you want a snap shot not a tracking shot. Also you really would prefer not to collide with your target (g).

Lots of pilots are doing this, no doubt without knowing it, but you can advance your pipper laterally in a banked turn with rudders but you need to add pitch back to stabilize the advance of the pipper. But beware this little edging of the pipper forward will not last. Your target solution will deteriorate quickly. Give it 1-2 seconds and the advantage is lost, so for example, in a banked right turn where you are trying to pull lead on a target that is also in a banked right turn, but your shots are falling behind him. You can add considerable right rudder and up pitch and gain 1/2 an inch on the shot.

From Kidi: ??
From Kidi: I guess this belongs to the smash section... you dive down, 400+ IAS,..
From Worr: yes, anything above maximum level flight speed smash is a term to refer to the closure rate advantage you have on your target
From Kidi: the ailerons harden up, (e.g. Ki-84), you try to correct with rudder... is it worthwhile?
From Worr: too much smash is hard to control
From Worr: yes now some ac have useless rudders, such as the P-51, when fast. You'll have to control that smash in your decent some
From Drex: !! chop throttle though, do not add flaps since flaps will change your nose aspect downward
From Drex: We were taught to use this in the T34...it does work
From Worr: cc, didn't know that.... what reasons did they give for the maneuver?
From Drex: mostly for formation flying when too fast but the principles are the same
From Kidi: cc thx
From Worr: cc

c. Saddling up the Shot

Rudders are really for fine-tuning a shot and an over dependence on them can frustrate your gun solutions. It's a simple rule really. Get into your enema's flight path first, and then line up the shot. Sometimes it's tempting to rudder over and slip into his six but then when he moves further away from your slip then you are far out of position. Do the hard work first not later, hehe...