Worr's Guns Defense - Shaking Charlie from your Six

It matters not how sharp your SA, how good your gunnery, how fast your kills, nor how reliable your buddies are, sooner or latter you'll find your self in a jam. How do you shake Charlie from your six? Is there a way to reverse your misfortunes? Yes... but not without Guns Defensive skills. Guns defense is exactly that... seeking a way to defeat an opponent's gun solution upon you. He may have a tracking shot. He may have a snap shot. But you don't want him to hit you, nor stay in his advantaged position for long.

If you are constantly diving down to the deck with a blood trail of energy left on the soil, and you do this near the enema's base and with no support about you, chances are you going to die. You remember the movie: "Night of the Living Dead"? Well, it's like running to the cemetery to fight your defense there. It's a losing battle. If you drop alt for a kill, climb away from the enema when you recover. When your buddies are dropping like flies... leave that last kill for another time. Discretion is the better part of valor.

Not only know if you left the back door open, but know what you are up against. If you are going one against three and you engage one first, take note of the other aircraft type, and their energy state. Are they zooming into the fight from level alt, climbing to you, or dropping from a distance yet above? Then when you have gotten your first kill, you know what you are up against. It doesn't hurt to know who the pilots are in that sector too. Doesn't matter if he is in a P-39. If it's the Red Baron, treat that aircraft with respect. :)

Most importantly, know when to go over to the defensive. This is so simple, yet so important. Very important. Personally I kill more aircraft because they are still turning aggressively into me, as in to reverse their position, or get guns on me. Aggression is good, and can surprise a few folks in a rhubarb. But know when its time to start thinking guns defense. Just because Mr. Bogie is in your forward up view, or even your up view, doesn't mean you are gaining. Many of the loops and circles you find yourself in are deceptive. They are more elliptical, i.e. egg shaped, then smooth. Be careful out there.

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From Lephturn: !
From Worr: Go Leph
From Lephturn: Ok, I guess my biggest problem is knowing when to go defensive. If in doubt of enema's E state, run like hell?
From Worr: Gun tracers are one cue <g> The key of course is SA.
From Sable: !
From Lephturn: Hahaha, good point. Although sometimes I keep trying anyway. Then I die.
From Worr: Also notice in your views the nose aspect of the enema. If you him it in your forward up view yet his nose is at you 20 degrees away beware. I go guns defense when I know I just blew my E on another kill. I just assume he has the advantage on me, that is safest.
From Lephturn: I guess bottom line is SA and ability to judge E states. cc thanks done.
From Worr: sable
From JJ Flash: !
From Dirt: !
From Sable: Just wanted to mention that tracers can be very deceptive... if you rely on them too much you can wind up jumping the gun on defense, or sometimes you might not see them...
From Worr: Yes, sometimes tracers are used to get you to break when you are ok.
From JJ Flash: You mean u go defensive if you think he has the advantage, or if you miss your first shot?
From Worr: If I miss my first shot I'm looking to retain my advantage, not go defensive. The way to lose that advantage is to press a poor gun solution and blow E needlessly. Typical Guns Defensive scenario is: Bogies dropping from above, you just got a kill and you have a con on your six. You are co-alt, but just got there from a steep climb, etc.
From Dirt: How big of a factor is net lag? If I see a bogie on the opposite end of a turning fight, do I assume he has the advantage and go defensive?
From Worr: Count two one thousands
From Worr: :)
From JJ Flash: a!
From Worr: If you are turning at the same rates, but at 90 degrees to your target, you are in a stalemate and dead meat for new bogies dropping in. But lag is not a factor in a flat circle or loop. It is in a merge however... and rear views, i.e. the #sare off by about range 3. Remember: "Objects in mirror are closer than they appear" <g>
From Worr: JJ then fast
From Roscoe: Ok, what gets me is I don't plan very well. If I overshoot victim, then I discover I've blown E and now I'm defensive...
From Worr: That's just what I want to happen in Guns Defense<g> We'll come to some of that later JJ, hang in there<g>
From Fast: WRT netlag, if you wait for what Shaw says, to begin your jinking, i.e. bogie pulling lead, looking at underside of his plane you will die before you ever see that in WB. Your opponent in WB has about 5-10 deg more turn than you see...
From Worr: When you first hear a ping, he shot it two seconds ago. I brought this up in the gunnery lecture.
From Fast: Exactly. So you must be afraid before the "picture" Shaw talks about.
From Worr: From You need to fire when you really do have a shot and not before to keep the element of surprise. Some pilots just don't go guns defense until they hear that first ping. You can use this against them. <g>
From Roscoe: When you say distance off by range 3 in merge, you mean actual distance is less than indicated or more?
From Worr: Not in the merge, in rear view
From Worr: <drinks glass of water>

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You have a bogie locked onto your six... he has a gun solution, a tracking shot and he has smash. That is, more energy than you. As in Judo, you can use your enema's own strength to your advantage. The key to the defensive spiral is to "sucker" your opponent down. Your turns are nose down with some rudder into the turn. Soon, you should gain enough E from the dive to begin blacking out the screen. You will want to force your opponent to overshoot so you will extend flaps, and even chop throttle. It's very difficult to keep sight in this move... but you need to know when terra firma is approaching and if your opponent has pasted you, or has stopped pursuit. A smart bogie will pull up and wait for you to finish. A sucker will follow you down and pull up in front of you to give you a snap shot. Then you have two options:

This move may also have the good fortune of dragging your advantaged enema down into a mess of friends. :)

It still amazes me how many targets nose up for me and let me kill them so quickly. You drop on them and they go for the straight up immelman, and you blast them as they get big and fat and slow. I almost feel bad taking these kills. Almost... :)

If you have someone dropping on you do your turns nose down keep your speed up, at or above your corner speed. Split-ess should be timed so as to be executed in the enema's blind spot... don't hit it too soon or his Mark I eyeball will see your escape route, too late, and well... you get the picture. A split-ess does not have to end in a 180 degree turnabout btw <g> Roll inverted, pull vertical, down, extend, down, down, down, roll home and pull, preferably roll to his blind side... say he goes into a yo- yo... roll into the dark side of his turn.

You want him to burn some extra E. Sometimes a less skilled pilot will oblige you without your needing to trick him. I see lots of pilots drop from the sky, miss their first shot and immediately nose down and turn with me, thus blowing all their E and making huge turns because of their great speed. It really makes for a mess... BOOM! A flick and flee is the classic move of the Fw-190. Bogie drives at your six... you pull up, Bogie begins to salivate. You flick your AC over in a rudder assisted roll, and he tries to follow dropping flaps. Fw-190 does this once more and you are co alt, co E and he is bye bye! Drain the E and Blow town... You may have Charlie on your six but now you can juke your way home.Don't be predictable in your jukes or even your flicks. I like to roll right rudder left; roll left rudder right; and then change the cycles back and forth to keep him from predicting and leading my path. With a good speed aircraft you can make your way to friends quickly.

From JJ Flash: !
From Worr: JJ go
From Ram1: !
From JJ Flash: Is flick the flea a modified split - ess
From Worr: No, you actually end up going the same direction.
From Ichi: !
From JJ Flash: ahh ok
From Ram1: What happens if you don't have altitude for these maneuvers... bail and die I guess?
From Worr: You turn to Chapter III of our lecture <g>
From Ram1: cc
From Worr: Entitled "Forcing the over shoot"
From Ichi: F & F a barrel roll?
From Lephturn: !
From Worr: Barrel roll will be in the overshoot chapter.
From Ichi: !
From Lephturn: Just a comment on Ram1's low & slow question: You can usually get enough for a low oblique splits... Augers them 1/3 of the time, especially Spits.
From Worr: You can modify your split-ess with a nose up climb first, then a dive. If you a getting bounced hard by an enema with lots of smash, it works very well.
From Lephturn: CC, That's what I do, plus I flap and pull smooth, come out at 20 feet. Spit goes blam, digs a big hole. :)
From Worr: ljl1 can teach us all that one :)
From Ichi: I'm not clear on meaning of the Flick part.
From Worr: Ok, Flick: Nose up and to your left... like you are starting a yo-yo, then you smash on the left rudder and roll left as well. Some call it a wing over... but that is really a bit more finesse. Bogie pulls hard up to greet your yo-yo but sees you flick over and down. You sucker him in and he is bleeding E bad... keep the rudder on and you end up on the same path as before. There are other ways to bleed his E ... even a simple break turn may sucker him in.
From JJ Flash: a squirrelly barrel roll?
From Worr: Hehe. Love ‘em! Let me move on to Chapter III then...

OK... you have blown it. You are low and slow, and no E, and you are all alone. The back door is closed... there is no way out. There are four moves I like to reach for:

Ye olde basic break turn assumes you have some amount on energy. Timing is VERY important! The first 90 degrees until your lift vector is finally onto the enema is the most dangerous part. You must get through that first 90 degrees out of gun range and do not, repeat, do not, go nose up. Use rudder if you need to keep your nose level... and rudder will speed your roll anyhow. I would even suggest ruddering down the nose as you turn into the break. If you hit this too soon you are in a head-on solution and he has even more energy than before. Too late and your body assumes room temperature:) BTW... ..You do not have to maintain a break turn!

From Lephturn: What range for break turn?
From Worr: Range 15, which is range 12... he will close to range 6/8 as your lift vector is now onto his nose. Once your lift vector is perpendicular to his plane of travel you are safe. Pull and rejoice <g>, unless of course, its the gunnery god on your six <g>. Front quarters at that rate of closure are tough. Let me stop here with this move and see if there are questions.
From Lephturn: Gunnery god... that would be you right Worr?<G> Glad I'm gold. :)
From Superman: You've been dangerous leph, too.
From Ram1: What if its a Zeke on your 6?
From Worr: <sigh> A Zero on the six should make you shudder.
From Ram1: bad huh?
From Worr: There is more to it than just seeing a Zeke, ram1. If he is fast, go for it. Still hit it the same. If he is slow... run for your life, and buy a copy of "How to win friends and influence people" immediately - you'll need friends. :)
From Ram1: thx :)
From JJ Flash: :)

Remember lift vector onto bogie outside gun range; nose down rudder in gun range... Now two options present themselves:

Charlie closing fast on your six. Nose up some roll left and slam on the right rudder. He will match your roll and vertical move, but not the slide. You will bore a hole in the sky... and he will blow right through it with ease. And the best part is you retain most excellent vis through the whole maneuver. He cannot follow it if he has smash. The best he can do is snap shot if he has rudder pedals, even then he may collide. If he stays with you you'll have a nice reversal coming your way. This move is hit well within gun solution range BTW. You are going to take some pings but it's for when you are really in a jam.

Again your enema has superior energy... how else do you think he got on your six? You have no vertical left to maneuver in... as the up vertical is out, due to blowing up your target size. You execute a series of break turns forcing your opponent into your up view with each break. The key is a good 180 roll that is fast and crisp. Pull back the opposite way and if he takes the bait he is pushing himself ahead of you, as your turn radius is sharper. This is even true of aircraft that are normally inferior in turn rate, but because they are slower, they still out turn the normally better turning aircraft. Speed and energy are more important than aircraft type! What helps in the flat scissors is to put some vertical into your move. However, don't just fly a straight line from side to side in front of your enema's gun sight. He will smarten up and shoot in the middle and watch you fly into his bullets. Nose up some and nose down some on each pass. Draco has an excellent www page on this maneuver if you track it down on the web.

From Worr: !?
From Lephturn: Ok, you break turn, you come back starting scissors. I see the overshoot coming, and pull up ahead of you, overshoot above you... Roll inverted, lag displacementroll...
From Worr: Define "pull up ahead of you." You mean go vertical? You sir have just defeated the flat scissors. There is no move to end all moves.
From Lephturn: Yep, pull up, hehehe. Time it so I pass just over you, and rolled inverted to watch you.
From Worr: the trick is to not hit it too exceptionally good the first few times. <g> Get him to stick around some and watch. All these moves are sucker moves and some suckers need coaxing.
From Lephturn: Ahh, cc. Thanx, done.
From Superman: So, the guy goes vertical and watches... He is a pro. What do you do now? Go vertical scissors with him, or something? I can fly, btw... just not a plane... <g>
From Worr: Split ess. A story is told about Cassius Clay - the famous boxer. He was on an air liner and the flight attendant asked him to put on his seat belt. His reply," Superman don't need no seat belt." " Well," said the attendant, "and Superman don't need no airplane." <g>
From Lephturn: hehehe
From Superman: :)
From Ichi: :)

Let's say I have a guy dropping from 3k plus with good speed. He is not setting up a tracking shot, but a snap shot. BTW, there is a big difference between these two things and it pays to know what you are being set up for. Now... he is barreling in fast from alt. That speed will limit both his roll rate and his turning radius, even if its the mighty speed demon, the P-51. You can use this to your advantage. Nose up 20 degrees into your bogie. Roll 20 degrees to one side. Pull him in for his set up, then simply roll your aircraft 40 degrees the other way and nose level with rudder into a short break turn... I say short for a scissors may be in order here. The P-51 cannot follow that move.

From JJ Flash: Man,the timing has to be good.
From Worr: Range 15 again
From JJ Flash: cc

Timing is everything to these moves, exactly because they are sucker moves. You'll die some getting these babies down <g>, but they are worth the deaths. As mentioned before... be aware that a faster bogie with alt has less vis than you. He can't look down so when he does his yo-yo or immelman or spiral climb, he has a large portion of his aircraft facing a direction he can't see into. That is where you want to go. Boomers are chess players. They keep their energy high and they head you off by rolling their aircraft to the vector you are going, while you are pulling the mighty G's to get to that same vector. So don't let him know where you are going... fool 'em when he isn't looking <g>. It's a fun game to play.

From Worr: !?
From Ichi: You said 20 degrees into your bogey, is he at 6:00 high or 12?
From Worr: 6 high. You turn to your 1 o‘clock and lift a bit, not too much for you need the E for the break turn. You can actually hit this maneuver very gently, it takes little to spoil his guns solution.
From Wdwiii: What if he inverts to see u?
From Worr: If he inverts to see you then he is not attacking. Remain calm wdwiii, never tip your hand too soon.
From Dirt: Are moves like break turn and the split-ess done with an eye on your E?
From Worr: Not really.
From Dirt: Or, should I realize that I'm in deep shit and start yanking on the stick?
From Superman: hehehe
From Worr: your heart rate will determine that your interests lie elsewhere <g> Hehe. Life over energy any day <g>
From Sable: as Pete Bonani said, if your gonna die, why die with the 50 extra knots? :)
From Lephturn: Guy booms me and misses, as he pulls up he can see me in his rear view unless I go the same direction only down?
From Worr: When he first pulls up he goes blind immediately, then he waits for you to float into his corner rearview because that's the way you were turning when he pulled up<g>
From Lephturn: Ahh, I'm waiting to long, should be breaking right away then, just as he passes.
From Worr: Timing, timing, timing...
From Lephturn: Thanks, done
From Worr: The trick is to know that you have just beaten his gun solution and then not to relish that victory tooooo long. The it's time to move on to other things.
From Mutt: At what distance do I begin the opening move? And the second break?
From Worr: Range 15. I want to come through my first 90degrees of my break turn outside the enema's gun range. Once my lift vector is on him let him close. Second break is done as soon as you know the game is yours and not a second later.
From Mutt: hmm...
From Worr: Can't really teach that one on paper mutt
From Wdwiii: define lift vector
From Fast: The line out the top of yer head
From Wdwiii: cc
From Worr: Perpendicular to the enema, and then closing nose to nose instead of his nose on your tail. That is the safety zone.

There are some aircraft that do accelerate well, such as the Fw-190. If you drive this bird you can flick and flee get your enema to burn some E and run. Get a Zero slow and go as they say <g>.

The climbers are of course the Bf-109, Spit 9, and FTD (P-38). I include the Zero below 6k. However do not mistake a good climber for a bird that can just be cranked vertical to outrun your opponent! As you pull up in your climb, you are pulling into the bogie on your six. You are really closing the distance between you, so take gentle climbs - 30 degrees or less. Spiral climbs are good too. If you can drag a Fw-190 up to alt, say 10k then the tables turn, same with the Zero. You are best pulling it up for a fight. Also know that some aircraft zoom climb better than they climb, like the 51.

The divers are those aircraft that can take a few chances and dive away. The Spit 9 and P-51 are excellent for this. They can tangle it up and if there is 8k below they can always leave...

From Ender: Why F6F not a 'climber'?
From Worr: Because the aforementioned aircraft are superior to it in a climb.
From Lephturn: It's a better diver.
From Worr: It is.
From Worr: mutt
From Sable: F6F is like a slower slightly more maneuverable 51.
From Mutt: Wouldn‘t Fw-190 be better than Spit 9 in a dive with no compression?
From Worr: With WEP, yes I feel. All WEPs are not equal in WB it seems <g>
From Lephturn: Spit 9 dives even better than it likely should.
From Mutt: CC!!
From Worr: It does do well... and it still is a good gun platform in the dive too.
From Mutt: Fw-190 historically out-dove Spits
From Worr: Some tactics against the Zero are exactly to go into a high speed dive to induce that compression and defeat itin a turn and burn match.
From Wdwiii: The problem I have w/climb is judging enemas E state.

The turners are obvious... the Zero, the Spit 5, the FTD but do not forget corner velocity and speed. The P-51 can turn superbly well at speed! Also, when you have a turn and burn aircraft there is no sense in flying straight. And if you are in a Zero, kill everyone before you leave<g>

Lastly the rollers, such as the Fw-190 and the FTD (38) you will want to use that roll to your advantage in guns defense. Take a F6F up on your six into the sky and roll it in a climbing spiral and watch the F6F flounder.It's fun to see!

Know thy aircraft! Know it at different speeds, different loads, and different alts... Here ends the lecture <g>

From Worr: <takes sip of water>
From Wdwiii: Leph has excellent charts on his page.
From Worr: cc Wdwiii leph has an excellent page period.
From Lephturn: http://fox.nstn.ca/~spconrad/lephturn.html Thanx guys! Lots of good training stuff there.
From Ender: 2Q: 1: corner speed: are there charts to figure this out, or
From Worr: cc Ender. See Robin Hood's page, Mr. Ed's charts. .In general though keep your IAS indicator in the green.
From Ender: Does someone have a list, or is experimentation best? (I WISH for a G-meter!)
From Fast: Use blackout onset as your g meter.
From Worr: cc fast, that is a good rule of thumb.
From Wdwiii: If u r pinged blind, what's first move?
From Worr: I immediately do something wild and obscene, minus the yelling...
From Superman: moon him
From Wdwiii: hehe
From Fast: Better an imperfect plan executed violently than a perfect plan executed too late.
From Worr: Rudder and roll. Do remember, he has been laying ammo into u for two full seconds and you are just now hearing it! Hope he was taking a snap shot! Plan your surprise defense for a snap shot and not a tracking shot because if it's the latter you are dead anyhow.
From Ender: Robin Hoods page? where? Mr. Ed's charts? where?
From Worr: Charts are at: http://www.cris.com/~Tcsavas/CK_E-M.shtml
From Sable: well, thanks for the lecture Worr, later all
From Worr: cc Sable you welcome. Thanx all for coming tonight. Hope this was helpful.
From Fast: Good stuff Worr, thanks.
From Wdwiii: Thanx Worr
From Ichi: Oink! Big time!
From Superman: You are an officer and a gentleman!
From Roscoe: It was! Thanks!
From Lephturn: Thank YOU Worr! Oinkers dude!
From Roscoe: Snort!
From Worr: Oink :)
From Ichi: <clap clap clap!!>